Pneumonia isn’t just one illness. There are multiple factors to consider including aspiration, multidrug resistance, and disposition. Cam Berg walks us through a pathway that makes order out of the pneumonia chaos.
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I think there was a significant point you all failed to touch on regarding the PO vs IV antibiotics for floor patients. I think that at this point, most practicing ER physicians know that PO antibiotics work just as well as IV. The issue with starting oral antibiotic therapy versus IV on many of these pneumonia admissions (or any admission for infectious pathology) is that it makes it more difficult for our hospitalist colleagues to get reimbursed for the admission. I know PO clindamycin has 90% bioavailability as does the hospitalist; however, if it makes it easier for the hospitalist to get reimbursed for the job they provided, I'm going to give IV clindamycin for the ill appearing cellulitis patient in order to help them out.
Now obviously if evidence comes out demonstrating that we are harming patients by starting patients on IV antibiotics versus PO, or if insurance companies make it easier to get reimbursed for admissions (which will never happen) I will change my practice.
According to McKesson, since at least 2014 they have recommended any antibiotics for pneumonia, not just IV. Hence, "the need IV antibiotics for reimbursement" myth is, well, just that.
There's also reasonable data that IV antibiotics have more risk than their PO counterparts:
To your first point, I'd like to see how McKesson came to that conclusion because I've witnessed hospitalist colleagues arguing with insurance companies over whether the patient required admission based almost solely on the fact that they never received IV antibiotics. I'm not sure how they can claim it's a myth when it's a very real issue.
To your second point, I'm not sure how that study demonstrates IV antibiotics have more risk than PO when there is no PO antibiotic group. It stands to reason that if PO antibiotics are just as effective as IV, they should also have very similar side effect profiles, as well.
Sorry for my slow reply. I've spent quite a while digging through the regulations and discussing this issue with Case Management. The payor landscape can differ substantially between locations and contracting potentially matters (not everything that I say can be extrapolated to your environment). That said, route of antibiotic administration has no bearing, locally, on patient status or payment. This, apparently, used to be a case in the past, but was twilighted by local payors 5-10 years ago.
In the end, we should do the right thing. Our language and decision making change patient status; we should articulate the other reasons why patients may or may note need hospitalization.
Doxycycline ought be taken sitting and with water there is the danger of esophagitis . With double dose GI side effects and also photo sensitivity are dangers . Del Russo JQ in J Clin Aesthet Dermatol 2015 reports use of a new double scored 150 mg tablet Doxycycline hyclate used in acne vulgaris with less GI effects .
Cam, have you had any issues with meeting CMS severe sepsis criteria for IV vs. PO antibiotics? Many patients who look well and would do just fine with PO abx, wind up meeting criteria for "severe sepsis" as defined by CMS (e.g. a lactate of 2.1), and therefore require an IV abx such as levofloxacin or ceftriaxone to satisfy the measure. I think many of my clinicians will go crazy trying to figure it out!
Do you have a copy of your actual pathway posted somewhere to review in entirety? I've tried piecing it together from the conversation and written summary, but don't want to miss any pieces as we try to bring something like this to our department.
Cam running into the same thing here in AZ, payors not paying for admissions if iv antibiotics not given. This is no myth it is happening...and as much as I want to do the right thing for the patient, I have to work with hospitalists who need to get paid in order to stay in business. Any thoughts on that? Its hard to do things that you know may hurt patients, but we do it all the time due to CMS constraints thru out history.
lol Rob of course I read it! He was suggesting there are local variations in payor response... I believe... my point was to show that it is probably more widespread than he realized... and the true cunundrum... yes I very much want to do what is right for my patients but at the same time I can not force another doctor to practice in a certain way and I don't walk in his shoes... if he( and it's one guy I work in a small hospital) does not feel he has the time to battle out payment for simple cases like med floor pneumonias I am not going to judge him for that. It should be something recognized nationally if the research is so robust... meaning it's apparently not ready for prime time or it would be more universally accepted. Perhaps we just need s couple of more studies because if this is true the insurance companies should be on our side as it would mean less expense for them in the long run. On my iPhone so excuse typos please I can't see %%^* at age 50
Sean, I feel your pain! It's so hard fighting every little battle when you're just trying to keep the ED afloat. Which ones do you pick? Is this one worth it?
I know this is late in the game as this segment came out a long time ago, but this is coming up again as we are hitting cough and cold season, and trying to convince my colleagues to avoid monotherapy with azithro and shift towards Doxy. My Sanford's guide says doxy 100mg bid x7 days. Uptodate also says 100mg bid. where is this high dose doxy regimen coming from??
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Ryan C. - December 12, 2016 3:24 AM
I think there was a significant point you all failed to touch on regarding the PO vs IV antibiotics for floor patients. I think that at this point, most practicing ER physicians know that PO antibiotics work just as well as IV. The issue with starting oral antibiotic therapy versus IV on many of these pneumonia admissions (or any admission for infectious pathology) is that it makes it more difficult for our hospitalist colleagues to get reimbursed for the admission. I know PO clindamycin has 90% bioavailability as does the hospitalist; however, if it makes it easier for the hospitalist to get reimbursed for the job they provided, I'm going to give IV clindamycin for the ill appearing cellulitis patient in order to help them out.
Now obviously if evidence comes out demonstrating that we are harming patients by starting patients on IV antibiotics versus PO, or if insurance companies make it easier to get reimbursed for admissions (which will never happen) I will change my practice.
Patrick B. - December 15, 2016 10:22 AM
According to McKesson, since at least 2014 they have recommended any antibiotics for pneumonia, not just IV. Hence, "the need IV antibiotics for reimbursement" myth is, well, just that.
There's also reasonable data that IV antibiotics have more risk than their PO counterparts:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25149599
Ryan C. - December 17, 2016 4:39 AM
To your first point, I'd like to see how McKesson came to that conclusion because I've witnessed hospitalist colleagues arguing with insurance companies over whether the patient required admission based almost solely on the fact that they never received IV antibiotics. I'm not sure how they can claim it's a myth when it's a very real issue.
To your second point, I'm not sure how that study demonstrates IV antibiotics have more risk than PO when there is no PO antibiotic group. It stands to reason that if PO antibiotics are just as effective as IV, they should also have very similar side effect profiles, as well.
cameron b. - December 20, 2016 12:29 PM
Sorry for my slow reply. I've spent quite a while digging through the regulations and discussing this issue with Case Management. The payor landscape can differ substantially between locations and contracting potentially matters (not everything that I say can be extrapolated to your environment). That said, route of antibiotic administration has no bearing, locally, on patient status or payment. This, apparently, used to be a case in the past, but was twilighted by local payors 5-10 years ago.
In the end, we should do the right thing. Our language and decision making change patient status; we should articulate the other reasons why patients may or may note need hospitalization.
Best,
C Berg
Ian L. - December 14, 2016 1:52 PM
Doxycycline ought be taken sitting and with water there is the danger of esophagitis .
With double dose GI side effects and also photo sensitivity are dangers .
Del Russo JQ in J Clin Aesthet Dermatol 2015 reports use of a new double scored 150 mg tablet Doxycycline hyclate used in acne vulgaris with less GI effects .
cameron b. - December 20, 2016 12:30 PM
True true. Doxy certainly can irritating the GI tract when not taken with food.
C Berg
Erik D. - December 22, 2016 8:27 AM
Cam, have you had any issues with meeting CMS severe sepsis criteria for IV vs. PO antibiotics? Many patients who look well and would do just fine with PO abx, wind up meeting criteria for "severe sepsis" as defined by CMS (e.g. a lactate of 2.1), and therefore require an IV abx such as levofloxacin or ceftriaxone to satisfy the measure. I think many of my clinicians will go crazy trying to figure it out!
Thanks,
Erik Deede
cameron b. - January 7, 2017 10:38 PM
entirely correct...this is a serious issue. we have opted to take care of the patient and understand that we will "miss" on these cases.
caleb b. - December 29, 2016 9:24 AM
Do you have a copy of your actual pathway posted somewhere to review in entirety? I've tried piecing it together from the conversation and written summary, but don't want to miss any pieces as we try to bring something like this to our department.
cameron b. - January 7, 2017 10:37 PM
send me an email - cameron.berg@northmemorial.com, and i'll reply with everything we have
Sean G., M.D. - January 22, 2017 4:19 AM
Cam running into the same thing here in AZ, payors not paying for admissions if iv antibiotics not given. This is no myth it is happening...and as much as I want to do the right thing for the patient, I have to work with hospitalists who need to get paid in order to stay in business. Any thoughts on that? Its hard to do things that you know may hurt patients, but we do it all the time due to CMS constraints thru out history.
Rob O - January 22, 2017 11:35 AM
Hey Sean, See Cam's response to Ryan C above...
Sean G., M.D. - January 23, 2017 8:17 AM
lol Rob of course I read it! He was suggesting there are local variations in payor response... I believe... my point was to show that it is probably more widespread than he realized... and the true cunundrum... yes I very much want to do what is right for my patients but at the same time I can not force another doctor to practice in a certain way and I don't walk in his shoes... if he( and it's one guy I work in a small hospital) does not feel he has the time to battle out payment for simple cases like med floor pneumonias I am not going to judge him for that. It should be something recognized nationally if the research is so robust... meaning it's apparently not ready for prime time or it would be more universally accepted. Perhaps we just need s couple of more studies because if this is true the insurance companies should be on our side as it would mean less expense for them in the long run. On my iPhone so excuse typos please I can't see %%^* at age 50
Rob O - January 23, 2017 1:39 PM
Sean, I feel your pain! It's so hard fighting every little battle when you're just trying to keep the ED afloat. Which ones do you pick? Is this one worth it?
Geoff M. - October 11, 2017 4:56 PM
I know this is late in the game as this segment came out a long time ago, but this is coming up again as we are hitting cough and cold season, and trying to convince my colleagues to avoid monotherapy with azithro and shift towards Doxy. My Sanford's guide says doxy 100mg bid x7 days. Uptodate also says 100mg bid. where is this high dose doxy regimen coming from??